What kind of liberal cr@p is the Traveler spewing??

lagonda · Senior Member

RE: What kind of liberal cr@p is the Traveler spewing??

I love being Right · Veteran Member

You would me right mother of 2 -- English is the official language of Arkansas City.

But I'm afraid that might make me racist just pointing that out... just a thought. Some here are so quick to jump on the racist wagon and throw the card down. It must make them feel important to try to put others down that way - if you don't have the same opinion?

bobdylan · Member

Why has it taken nearly two months, and much heated debate, for you to bring that up? Could it be that you are just now figuring out how unpopular your opinion is, and trying to cover your @$$?

strong words for someone who cant even put their name on a post.

i dont usually mess with the forums anyway ... something probably wrong with that too :)

jj

S23246G · Senior Member

And your real name is Bob Dylan too, right?

lagonda · Senior Member

"English is the official language of Arkansas City"

And "Faded Love" is the official country and western song of Oklahoma.
It is always a good day that starts with Bob Wills.

4 million U.S. citizens in Puerto Rico who go to the US government offices there conduct all of their activities (official and otherwise) in Spanish.
All official activities in Ark City have to be available to be understood by all affected parties, whether the issue is language, disability or comprehension. It is federal law.
"English as the official language of Arkansas City" means only that we have voted it to be, just as if we had voted the "Sweet 100" to be the official tomato of AC. It changes nothing, particularly with regard to the official responsibilities the city has to its residents.

peech · Member

lagonda wrote:

Peech:

It sounds like you would like to be controversial here, but coming onto this blog now is like transferring from Ark City High to a Birmingham inner city high school in mid term without a knife. Much of the stuff is "been there and done that", and most of the rougher edges here have been knocked off at this point. Most on this blog are a little battle-worn and trigger happy. There are a lot of issues left, but I'm not sure anyone, including myself, can get interested in racism, immigration, bigotry, bad teeth, keeping stories straight or how Hillary is the spawn of Satan and Ronnie Raygun sits at the hand of God. Been there, done that, and have the shirt.

Seemed a little interesting the first time around (and I'm not sure why), but not so much now.

Try something new.

Lagonda, all respect due, it may be interesting to Willy Whitebread for a few days, until he's ready to get back to his regular job, go home to his regular house, shoot the breeze with his regular neighbour, and go to sleep in his regular bed at night, ready to do the same thing the next day.

I'll grant you that: It may be an "interesting" conversation or piece for thought before pickign up the Traveler to see how much trouble the blacks and Mexicans have caused for the day.

But for those blacks and Mexicans who live here and face it daily, I'm sure it's not an interesting bit of thought. I'm sure it's not just a topic to discuss to pass the time until 10p.m. rolls around.

I'm quite sure that dealing with it every day makes it less interesting and a fact of life that shouldn't be in existence.

If it's something that you tire of discussing, that's one thing and I respect that, person to person. But denying that it's an important issue and relegating it to one that should be picked up like a bauble and put down three minutes later is disrespectful to the people who deal with it on a daily basis.

Signs that say "Now Hiring" or "Help Wanted" hang on store windows for weeks, and who could count how many Blacks or Mexicans [or other minorities] have applied for those jobs and had their applications soundly deposited in the wastebin next to the owner's desk or counter?

The truth is, black owned businesses are nearly nil in this area. Mexican owned businesses are picking up but hardly respected by anyone other than the rest of the Mexican population.

Blacks and Mexicans who hold positions of importance in this area are slight as well, and even as far as the City employees run, most minorities work in the maintenance or garbage collecting positions rather than supervisors or managers of anything.

As a child I knew that I did not live on the side of Summit St. where the blacks and poor people lived, and I lived too far north to deal with the poor and Mexican people who lived south of Madison. I didn't know what that meant as a child, but now, as an adult, not only do I know what it means, I know that for the most part it is still the same.

It has changed, in the 16 years since I lived here as a child and now that I'm an adult and have moved back into the area, but only a small amount. Who is to blame for that? Better question: who cares? It's not about blame and the bad white people and poor, downtrodden Black or Mexican people. It's about this place, struggling to keep its whitewashed image on the outside while we [all of us!] let the inside rot and decay.

The truth: It's hard to find a job if you're a minority here.
The truth: It's easy to get arrested if you're a minority here.
The truth: It's a piece of cake to be the victim of racial profiling here [especially if you're a minority in a nice car!]
The truth: It's nearly impossible to be seen as anything more than a "black person" or "one of those Mexicans from the packing plant" in this town.
The truth: It's not something that those people can pick up and put down as a topic of discussion.

It's that person's life. Not a topic.

Again, all respect due. Been great talking with you, and you're spot on about English being the official language of Arkansas City. Means just about as much as voting Celine Dion the Official Music of Winos.

peech · Member

lagonda wrote:

Whole thing is a lot harder than it looks. I've many spent years off and on learning spanish and even though I've tried hard sometimes, I've only gotten good enough at it to be illiterate and foolish in conversation and even thoough I can read Spanish well and understand spoken Spanish well, I never try to initiate a conversation. Never. Ever. The only ones who do well with new languages and understand slang and nuances are kids who learn it as they grow up.

But you've tried. That's more to me, inside this discussion, than anything else. You've tried.

Maybe it didn't work for you, but you tried.

Good on ya

peech · Member

I love being Right wrote:

You would me right mother of 2 -- English is the official language of Arkansas City.

But I'm afraid that might make me racist just pointing that out... just a thought. Some here are so quick to jump on the racist wagon and throw the card down. It must make them feel important to try to put others down that way - if you don't have the same opinion?

I don't think the term racist is an insult. I think it's an opportunity. But then again, everyone doesn't see it that way.

lagonda · Senior Member

"If it's something that you tire of discussing, that's one thing and I respect that, person to person."
Yep. That's it. I'm glad you get it.

The only thing I could figure out doing is to try to expand the discussions on this blog. Nobody else is involved. Changing Ark City can't be done here. I think I have done a little dialog to try to open the scope of racial empathy here, but I would be an idiot if I thought I really changed anyone's core values or opinions. I have seen a bit of tempering of some of the issues, and honestly, I am pretty satisfied with that. I have also seen some other people's opinions along the way and I might have learned something too about the way they think.

The thing I know is that the more we know about and understand each other's similarities and differences, whether race or otherwise, the more we know we are alike. That means SG is a liberal (just kidding... it's a joke, dammit).

I've lived in the deep south and never experienced the type of insolence that the blacks in Wichita exhibit toward other races. Why does it exist? Because both sides are pretty well escalated. The more the conversation points toward compassion and understanding the better it all becomes for everybody.

Yeah, I'm tired of discussing if it just cranks it back up.

Good luck. You're on your own if you go that route..

motherof2 · Senior Member

I have seen many minorities get jobs at Rubbermaid. If you speak Spanish or a foreign language and are a good worker, it is easy to get a supervisors position. They need people who can manage workers and speak their language. I have seen minorities in upper management, but few and far between. As a matter of a fact, women in upper management are just as sparce.

I can not speak for the retail business, but I do see many young Mexican people working in fast food and at Country Mart.

I do not see many blacks, though. Honestly, I have always wondered why. I have always wondered where they do work, as they never stayed long at Rubbermaid, either. I can only think of four black males who worked there for a long period of time, and I was there 15 years. Why??????

Patrick · Senior Member

I'm a little curious how people here decided what Ark City's official language means? Did any of you read it? Or is it just what you hope it means so that you can laugh at it?

Does it make any difference?

The city of Arkansas City does all of it's business in English only. The city is not required to publish or post anything in any language other than English. The only time anything other than English is required is in court to be sure the accused can be properly defended (a Federal issue).

motherof2 · Senior Member

Thanks for the info Pat. I hope those who speak Spanish do not take this as a joke. It meant something to me.

I love being Right · Veteran Member

Me too -- I understood why they decided to adopt an official language. And... I am another citizen that appreciates all your input on issues and hard work Patrick - Thanks.

Greenpiece · Veteran Member

Judos Patrick i also agree

blah · Senior Member

Why is this thread still going?

lagonda · Senior Member

I'm really not sure what it all means. Was there an Ark City resolution to adopt the U.S. flag as the official flag? The Kansas state song as the official city song? Just how, seriously, is the adoption of English as Ark City's "official" language anything in the world different from business as usual?

The whole "taking a stand" on the English language was completely unnecessary and shows exactly what it is. It is a pedestrian (dull) attempt at thinly veiled anti-hispanic prejudice.

Really, was Ark City ever really going to publish everything in other languages (any specific language come to mind?) and do parallel business in another language just to accommodate a 4.5% minority?

Come on, really. It is clear what the message is here. I'm sure the hispanics get it too.

What was the point of the resolution? What did it accomplish? Was it just pimping and pandering to the white voters? I say it was. I'm sure of it.

S23246G · Senior Member

From what I understand, it simply means that the city does not have to provide all of their literature in many other languages, or provide interpreters for people who don't speak English. I think it's a step in the right direction, and It might even save us taxpayers some money.

S23246G · Senior Member

4.5%? Is that REALLY all it's up to? Seems like a LOT more than that. Where did you find that statistic? I can see that a few years ago, but now it must be much higher. Granted, I am just judging by what I see every day around town.

lagonda · Senior Member

"It might even save us taxpayers some money."

They were never going to provide translators anyway so there is no money they were going to spend that they now save. The whole thing was a waste of time and a "feel-good" move for the white majority, but they get an "F" in understanding and community public relations on this one.

What else could they do?

Easy. They could have just ST#U and kept on doing business as they have for the last 50 years and comply with the laws as do anyway.

It would have changed absolutely nothing at all with the way the city operates, but it wouldn't have insulted the spanish speaking hispanics. Can't take it back now, but someone should take the reins and think deeper than just the surface. Isn't there someone at the city that knows P.R. and public image?

(MB, me2, sorry. although I did say #, it is a suggestion of what they might have done, not telling anyone to do it. Too late now anyway.)

I think of # as meaning heck, don't you?

CALLUS · Veteran Member

Patrick wrote:

I'm a little curious how people here decided what Ark City's official language means? Did any of you read it? Or is it just what you hope it means so that you can laugh at it?

Does it make any difference?

The city of Arkansas City does all of it's business in English only. The city is not required to publish or post anything in any language other than English. The only time anything other than English is required is in court to be sure the accused can be properly defended (a Federal issue).

Could it be that the city has enough problems dealing with the few angry people who can read english and understand that they are not being represneted fairly, so you publish only in english so you don't have to try to speak or explain to others how they are getting stiffed by the commissioners on personal agenda's or what, they are a part of the community and they need to know what and why things are like they are for them in this town too

CALLUS · Veteran Member

S23246G wrote:

4.5%? Is that REALLY all it's up to? Seems like a LOT more than that. Where did you find that statistic? I can see that a few years ago, but now it must be much higher. Granted, I am just judging by what I see every day around town.

You might just pay a little more attention to your local news paper other than what stirs you up wink

Patrick · Senior Member

lagonda wrote:

I'm really not sure what it all means. Was there an Ark City resolution to adopt the U.S. flag as the official flag? The Kansas state song as the official city song? Just how, seriously, is the adoption of English as Ark City's "official" language anything in the world different from business as usual?

The whole "taking a stand" on the English language was completely unnecessary and shows exactly what it is. It is a pedestrian (dull) attempt at thinly veiled anti-hispanic prejudice.

Really, was Ark City ever really going to publish everything in other languages (any specific language come to mind?) and do parallel business in another language just to accommodate a 4.5% minority?

Come on, really. It is clear what the message is here. I'm sure the hispanics get it too.

What was the point of the resolution? What did it accomplish? Was it just pimping and pandering to the white voters? I say it was. I'm sure of it.

Lagonda,

Since you have already decided and are sure of the situation I guess there is no point in explaining it. Should you decide in the future that you would like the facts on the decision you are welcome to email me at pmcdonald2005@sbcglobal.net or come visit me in my store as many others do. Please have an open mind. If you are going to tell me what I did and why I did it you'll waste time for both of us.

Patrick McDonald

S23246G · Senior Member

"They were never going to provide translators anyway so there is no money they were going to spend that they now save. The whole thing was a waste of time and a "feel-good" move for the white majority, but they get an "F" in understanding and community public relations on this one."

I happen to know that the City has spent much money sending it's employees to Spanish classes to cope with the influx. At the PD, they were told by the pillars of the hispanic community that if the city allowed the packing house to come here, then they (the pillars) would be available to help with any translating any time they were needed.

Well, as soon as the packing house came, and the first drunk with ZERO english skills was arrested, and the first pillar of the community showed up to translate for them at 2:000 A.M. (it was a pastor I believe), he said "never call me again".

lagonda · Senior Member

"Since you have already decided and are sure of the situation I guess there is no point in explaining it." "If you are going to tell me what I did and why I did it you'll waste time for both of us."

If there are any facts I'm missing, I'd like to know more. Maybe you could briefly tell me here unless it is information that can't be shared.
The city had no requirement to provide translations except in law enforcement and legal proceedings.
Why go to the trouble of a resolution to confirm what you weren't doing anyway?

I'm sure a hispanic gets the point.

It sure doesn't have that warm fuzzy "welcome wagon" friendly feel to it if you are a hispanic worker in AC with limited english language skills. It sends a completely different and officially sanctioned image.

How about a resolution saying the Mayor would not be providing job counseling to Cowley students?
Or a resolution saying there will be no skateboard park built within the boundaries of Wilson Park?
Or that Pat McDonald would not be permitted to make J turns on Summit.

It makes it seem like one group is singled out. And for no reason whatsoever.

It looks like a resolution meant to antagonize the language issue.

If you say that that was not the intention, then, fine, I can understand that.
If you say you don't get the point, then I dunno.

I love being Right · Veteran Member

"It would have changed absolutely nothing at all with the way the city operates, but it wouldn't have insulted the spanish speaking hispanics. Can't take it back now, but someone should take the reins and think deeper than just the surface. Isn't there someone at the city that knows P.R. and public image?"
-------------------------------------------------------

I really don't think it was meant to hurt anyone's feelings or as a personal attack. But anything that you can possibly read race into, it seems like you do.

I don't think everyone that works in the public should be forced to learn Spanish to cater to immigrants. I wouldn't move to a foreign country and EXPECT them to bend over backwards for me. In fact, I don't expect the government to bend over backwards to do anything for me. If I want to go to work in France, I probably better learn French. I'm sure there are some people that do speak English there, but I wouldn't DEMAND it or EXPECT it? And why is it just Spanish -- we have immigrants from all over the world, but I don't hear any demands that we all learn their languages too? You don't press 3 for Chinese and 4 for German... do we?

I guess I'm not sure why it is insulting when you KNOW when you come to the US it is a mostly ENGLISH speaking country.

I love being Right · Veteran Member

I guess I missed the article with the 4.5% also -- can someone post it so I can read it? Where did they get that number -- how do we know how accurate it is? What is the current population of AC anyway?

Patrick · Senior Member

lagonda wrote:

"Since you have already decided and are sure of the situation I guess there is no point in explaining it." "If you are going to tell me what I did and why I did it you'll waste time for both of us."

If there are any facts I'm missing, I'd like to know more. Maybe you could briefly tell me here unless it is information that can't be shared.
The city had no requirement to provide translations except in law enforcement and legal proceedings.
Why go to the trouble of a resolution to confirm what you weren't doing anyway?

I'm sure a hispanic gets the point.

It sure doesn't have that warm fuzzy "welcome wagon" friendly feel to it if you are a hispanic worker in AC with limited english language skills. It sends a completely different and officially sanctioned image.

How about a resolution saying the Mayor would not be providing job counseling to Cowley students?
Or a resolution saying there will be no skateboard park built within the boundaries of Wilson Park?
Or that Pat McDonald would not be permitted to make J turns on Summit.

It makes it seem like one group is singled out. And for no reason whatsoever.

It looks like a resolution meant to antagonize the language issue.

If you say that that was not the intention, then, fine, I can understand that.
If you say you don't get the point, then I dunno.

Lagonda,

I'm sorry you are so pressed on the issue. One of the relevant factors is that there are other languages than Spanish, though you neglected to put that in. Does that make you racist that you did not suggest them?

As for making J-turns on Summit, it is illegal for everyone. The other suggestions I cannot speak to.

Though the reasons for having an official language are wide and varied, I'll stick to the most simple and obvious.

1. Without an official language if the city creates flyers, pamphlets or documents in more than one language (doesn't matte which language) the city can be held responsible to create them in all languages used locally. Though you might not notice, we have a number of immigrants, workers on temporary visa and students from a number of countries that speak limited English.

2. Without an official language the city would have to be prepared to provide public services in a variety of languages (for library, community centers, and even utility services).

3. Without an official language, businesses in the city could have to provide service flyers, pamphlets and documents in other languages.

There is a cost (sometimes very significant) to creating, printing, and having these documents and publications on hand. This depends much on the type of service, and also if they relate to government services.

Translators for court will still be required as that is a federal issue.

There are other issues, but these are all I can think of at the moment. I apolgize if this reads a little brokenly. I get interupted often and don't always continue my thoughts correctly. Please understand, Spanish is only part of the issue here, though it is the primary reason for having to deal with the others. Though Spanish seems the only thing of import on the blogs it has become a very important issue for the city in dealing with a variety of other languages.

By the way, it would have been easier and better to talk or let me write an email a bit at a time. I'm sorry you couldn't wait for a better answer.

lagonda · Senior Member

Between census it is up for speculation. It is 2008. In 2010 there will be a census which will be reported in 2012. There is no exact count of hispanics or how many speak only spanish. My guess is the majority of the people of hispanic heritage here speak english.

lagonda · Senior Member

"As for making J-turns on Summit, it is illegal for everyone."

And Dotty doesn't counsel Cowley students and there are no plans one way or another for building a skateboard park in Wilson. That was my point, but I guess it escaped undetected.

Thousands of cities don't have an "official language" and they don't translate in all languages either.

I find it interesting to side-track about "all other languages" and suggest it is not about spanish when we know exactly what the issue is.

Where is the law that requires the city to publish in all those languages if there is not an official language, and why does it not seem to affect all of those thousands of other towns (and hundreds of Kansas towns) who haven't designated an "official language"?

Patrick · Senior Member

lagonda wrote:

"As for making J-turns on Summit, it is illegal for everyone."

And Dotty doesn't counsel Cowley students and there are no plans one way or another for building a skateboard park in Wilson. That was my point, but I guess it escaped undetected.

Thousands of cities don't have an "official language" and they don't translate in all languages either.

I find it interesting to side-track about "all other languages" and suggest it is not about spanish when we know exactly what the issue is.

Where is the law that requires the city to publish in all those languages if there is not an official language, and why does it not seem to affect all of those thousands of other towns (and hundreds of Kansas towns) who haven't designated an "official language"?

Since you have complete knowledge, and my explanation is unsatisfactory I shall do the right thing and concede.

There are no other languages or people. Your thoughts are the only thoughts. All other possibilities are null and void.

This is what blogs are for.

I apologize for offering facts and find no use to visit this site anymore.

Good luck to you all, and for those that get tired of dark fantasy feel free to contact me.

Patrick McDonald