2 Men charged in kidnapping

motherof2 · Senior Member

2 Men charged in kidnapping

Patrick · Senior Member

motherof2 wrote:

Patrick, I once asked the police if there was any fowl play going on in my neighborhood. They told me know. Come to find out, there had been 3 different incidents on my immediate block within a month of my asking. I'm not so sure they will tell us anything at all. Sorry!

I guess it would depend on who you ask and what the question is. An on duty officer might not have been on duty when those events took place and may not be aware. The only way to find out for sure is to call and have records pulled. I don't know for sure that they keep records by location. If you ask them directly they answer to the best of their ability, but they don't have records in their cars.

They will tell you anything they know. If you need specific information, you have to ask someone that does know. Just like with anything else. A call to the information center 441-4444 is the best. Though now you might get better results with Access Arkansas City on the city's website.

motherof2 · Senior Member

Yes, this was an officer. Next time I will try your website. Thanks for the tip. I am a little concerned with communication within the department, though. I would feel better if the officers being sent to a home would come armed with knowledge of previous activity in the neighborhood. Perhaps it would help them in their investigation.

Patrick · Senior Member

motherof2 wrote:

Yes, this was an officer. Next time I will try your website. Thanks for the tip. I am a little concerned with communication within the department, though. I would feel better if the officers being sent to a home would come armed with knowledge of previous activity in the neighborhood. Perhaps it would help them in their investigation.

They do have a portable computer in the car with some information in it, but it is general information. They can't hold all of the information and it might be used in a different part of town each day. The computers at the station can keep much more information and sort it in different ways. The computers in the cars just can't hold it all. The car computers are uploaded into the main computer every day.

I like this new customer service program on the city website. The best part is people can check up on their complaints and requests. That might free up part of my time too :)

S23246G · Senior Member

Guatemalans plead guilty to reduced charge
By Judy Welch
February 5, 2008 - 8:54:58 am

Two Guatemalans charged with kidnapping two other Guatemalans pleaded guilty to reduced charges in Cowley County District Court in Arkansas City last week.

Amarildo Estrada-Barrios, 19, and Juan Carreto-Cojolon, 30, were each originally charged with two counts of kidnapping. The charges were reduced by the County Attorney's Office to aggravated assault.

Sentencing was set for March 6. The men are being held in the Cowley County Jail.

The victims shared an apartment with the men who claimed they were just playing a joke when they wore masks and held the victims at knifepoint as they were leaving Wal-Mart Jan. 2.

One of the victims escaped and the kidnappers fled when the car the four were in struck a wall at Riverside Cemetery. Estrada-Barrios and Carreto-Cojolon were later arrested at the Arkansas City apartment the four shared.

Does ANYONE ever get charged with the original crime and go to trial, or does the prosecutor ALWAYS let them plea to a lesser charge?

motherof2 · Senior Member

What about criminal damages to the cemetery wall? What about concealed weapons? Do these not apply here? I do not care if it was a joke. It happened, the people were scared out of their minds and called the cops. Done deal! Prosecute!

I'm telling you, it takes someone getting murdered in this town...

I feel sorry for the cops who are hauling them in and seeing them walk right back out. What is the jail time for aggravated assault?

The only thing I could see here is that maybe they have a plan? Maybe it will be really easy to convict them on aggravated assault, they will do less jail time and then get deported that much quicker. Maybe?

S23246G · Senior Member

We will have to wait and see if they are ever dealt with by ICE, or if they are just turned loose on our city streets again (that is, if they do any time at all... I wouldn't be surprised if they got nothing but probation).

Elee · Veteran Member

motherof2 wrote:

What about criminal damages to the cemetery wall? What about concealed weapons? Do these not apply here? I do not care if it was a joke. It happened, the people were scared out of their minds and called the cops. Done deal! Prosecute!

I'm telling you, it takes someone getting murdered in this town...

I feel sorry for the cops who are hauling them in and seeing them walk right back out. What is the jail time for aggravated assault?

The only thing I could see here is that maybe they have a plan? Maybe it will be really easy to convict them on aggravated assault, they will do less jail time and then get deported that much quicker. Maybe?

Aggravated Assault

An aggravated assault, punishable in all states as a felony, is committed when a defendant intends to do more than merely frighten the victim. Common types of aggravated assaults are those accompanied by an intent to kill, rob, or rape. An assault with a dangerous weapon is aggravated if there is an intent to cause serious harm. Pointing an unloaded gun at a victim to frighten the individual is not considered an aggravated assault.

This is a discription of what Agg Assault is. From what this is saying it is a felony. They should be deported for this, but in my research on the internet I am seeing where many illegals, even felons are getting off of being deported with good lawyers and lack of involvement with INS. What I can tell you is that if INS doesn't come and get them when their jail time is up they will be turned loose. The jail can't legally hold them for being illegal. Lets hope the government will send them home.

motherof2 · Senior Member

Pat, can you watch this one for us?

Patrick · Senior Member

S23246G wrote:

We will have to wait and see if they are ever dealt with by ICE, or if they are just turned loose on our city streets again (that is, if they do any time at all... I wouldn't be surprised if they got nothing but probation).

After all the complaining, it turns out our police department does exactly what they are supposed to do. The county cuts a deal for some reason (let's hope for the worst here), and we haven't heard the response from ICE yet (again, let's hope for the worst).

Maybe that other thread was right. You can't put a shine on a turd. Oh wait. OUR police did it right.... but since we work with the county attorney and federal ICE we should still be in the same basket

dddfan · Veteran Member

Patrick, more white wash?
When I was working LE, we were required to read the daily log, which was updated as it happend, so we knew what was going on, at least the initial reports, maybe not all the follow-up. This happened every shift change, and if you were on duty, and were awake, you could follow radio traffic, and have a darn good idea of what was going on.
Someone wasn't giving the whole story.

motherof2 · Senior Member

Honestly, Pat I am suprised the cops haven't just given up. I know they send them in and they come right back out the revolving door. Wouldn't your "go get 'em" attitude be reduced a little by that? I have seen it time and time again. How do we as citizens stop this? Any suggestions? These two guys need deported and not turned loose into our community. Who do we put the pressure on? There are many keyboard pushing enthusiast here on this site who would, I'm sure, love to flood someone's inbox. I think that if you pointed us in the right direction, we could take the heat off you for a second and put it on someone else. Let's put these "attitudes" to work for us and turn a negative into a positive. Game?

Patrick · Senior Member

There has been a lot of heat on our police department and on the city commission for not dealing with illegals. I responded each time with the fact that we have no authority. The state and feds are the only ones that can do anything about this. The county can put them in jail, but I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

I know I sound like a broken record, but there is something we can do. Contact your state and local representatives and tell them how you feel. The police, the city, even the county has no control over this whatsoever. We can catch them and put them in jail for a felony, contactr ICE. Aside from that there is nothing else can be done.

The people that make the rules, at the state and federal level are the only ones to turn to. Ask them what will happen. Ask them what you can do. Ask them what they can do. Put the pressure on them the way you put the pressure on me and the police department just a few months ago. The big difference is THEY can make a difference.

Elee · Veteran Member

Patrick wrote:

S23246G wrote:

We will have to wait and see if they are ever dealt with by ICE, or if they are just turned loose on our city streets again (that is, if they do any time at all... I wouldn't be surprised if they got nothing but probation).

After all the complaining, it turns out our police department does exactly what they are supposed to do. The county cuts a deal for some reason (let's hope for the worst here), and we haven't heard the response from ICE yet (again, let's hope for the worst).

Maybe that other thread was right. You can't put a shine on a turd. Oh wait. OUR police did it right.... but since we work with the county attorney and federal ICE we should still be in the same basket

Well Patrick, it is nice to see that you can finally understand what we have been talking about for so long on this forum. Although I am not sure I am understanding your sarcasum in regard to this topic. We all know that the ACPD did as much as they could to pin point the kidnappers....and I have never known them to turn down a chance to arrest someone for such a thing. After all they keep track of how many arrests each officer gets. So of course they did their job. It isn't like we were critisizing them for not turning in burned out street lights. We want a dangerous pair of illegals to go back to where they came from because they are a threat to our community....Is that so wrong? SG was not critical of ACPD...he was putting the monkey on the backs of the County Attorney, the Judges and ICE. And you, yet again, have to get p--py and get started on the "turd" comment. Dang, let it go, you can't control everything or every one....all you can do is, all you can do....Nothing more. Nothing less. I used to tell my kids when they got impatient that they needed to sit down and breathe deep and count to ten....Count to ten Pat! Breathe deep..........

Elee · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Elee at 04:52, 2008-02-13

S23246G · Senior Member

S23246G wrote:

We will have to wait and see if they are ever dealt with by ICE, or if they are just turned loose on our city streets again (that is, if they do any time at all... I wouldn't be surprised if they got nothing but probation).

Patrick wrote:

After all the complaining, it turns out our police department does exactly what they are supposed to do. The county cuts a deal for some reason (let's hope for the worst here), and we haven't heard the response from ICE yet (again, let's hope for the worst).

Maybe that other thread was right. You can't put a shine on a turd. Oh wait. OUR police did it right.... but since we work with the county attorney and federal ICE we should still be in the same basket

Patrick, Patrick, Patrick,

You are finding negativity where none exists. I wasn't putting down the ACPD at all. They did do what they were supposed to do, and no one is arguing that.

I think that you are on the defensive so often, kinda like a dog that's been kicked too much, that you bite back even when you don't need too.

My point was that we will all be watching to see if ICE does what they are supposed to do, after our system is done slapping them on the wrist. I hold out some (if little) hope that they will. We shall all see.

Patrick · Senior Member

I'm sorry for the negativity, I am still thinking about the (seemingly) 40-50 posts about me, the commission, and the police not doing anything about the illegal immigrants. After all the research and answering questions and looking things up for people it all seemed a waste.

I know I should forget it, it's water under the bridge. But I haven't heard anyone yet say that yes, Ark City did it right. I heard a lot about expecting them to ignore the situation and make a point not to do anything about it, but when they do it right it just slides by.

I'm not holding the negativity, but if we can't see a positive in what we do it doesn't make much difference. I'm not saying we all have to be cheerleaders, but after months of negative posts a positive would have been nice. That's what turning this all around means. It's not enough to stop the negativity, it's also promoting the positives. I appreciate the moves so far, I just don't see it as a turnaround.

Ark City did it right! We have no control over the county or ICE, we can work on that problem too, but Ark City did it right! Instead of only pointing out the bad, give a little credit where it is due. Ark City did it right!

Elee · Veteran Member

Yes Patrick, ACPD DID IT RIGHT! Of course they are going to do what they have to do to get these dangerous guys off the street. There was not any question of whether they did right in my eyes, or anyone elses for that matter. NOW, if ARKCITY wants to "get it right", they would pass ordinances like they did with the grafitti, quickly, so that renting houses/harboring people who are illegal (I don't care what color they are) in the first place would be against city ordinances. We want all living here to pay taxes and share in the burden and all the positive/negative that goes with it. Of course we have had this conversation before. So if Arkcity wants to "get it right", they will try to look into what they can do to make all who lives here equal...... Equal pay (finding employers that want to pay more than minimum wage), equal living conditions (by making slum lords clean up their rentals), equal tax paying (by making those who don't pay taxes accountable). That is what Arkcity needs to do to 'get it right"! ACPD.... you did good!!!!!! No doubt about it........ wink

motherof2 · Senior Member

We may want to e-mail Kasha Kelley and Governor Sebelius, too. Kasha is pushing the stalking bill after Jody's death. I wonder how she would feel about 2 people being kidnapped with a knife in Wal-Mart parking lot?

motherof2 · Senior Member

Elee, found out that the senators and congressmen no longer take mail directly. You have to go to each individual's website and send e-mail through their link. I'm done, though. Sent mine off this morning. Anyone else getting busy?

motherof2 · Senior Member

http://acflipside.blogspot.com

Elee · Veteran Member

Thank you motherof2,
I tried to send one and it came back as undeliverable. I thought it may have had something to do with how I sent it. I did however send my letters tonight to the congressmen. And will send my letters to the rest of them tomorrow night. I found that site I posted online...if they don't work they should change them online....Sorry they didn't work....

Elee · Veteran Member

pat_roberts@roberts.senate.gov

tiahrt@mail.house.gov

http://brownback.senate.gov

motherof2 · Senior Member

No problem! Glad to see you getting the word out.

motherof2 · Senior Member

Breaking news @ http://acflipside.blogspot.com

motherof2 · Senior Member

Next question...

Were these two employed, and if so by whom?

S23246G · Senior Member

Gee, I can't think of any local employers who would knowingly hire illegal aliens just to save money on wages. Or an employer who doesn't look too hard at identification, if at all. OR an employer who gives it's illegal workers lessons on what to do if ICE comes...

Nope... can't think of any off the top of my head! hmm

(SARCASM ALERT) (SARCASM ALERT) (SARCASM ALERT)

motherof2 · Senior Member

Interesting answers at http://acflipside.blogspot.com

Patrick · Senior Member

S23246G wrote:

Gee, I can't think of any local employers who would knowingly hire illegal aliens just to save money on wages. Or an employer who doesn't look too hard at identification, if at all. OR an employer who gives it's illegal workers lessons on what to do if ICE comes...

Nope... can't think of any off the top of my head!

(SARCASM ALERT) (SARCASM ALERT) (SARCASM ALERT)

I understand it is sarcasm, but I see several flaws in the thoughts.

Illegal aliens wouldn't get lower wages. They would get the same as the other employees. Auditors for taxes and investors would catch that kind of problem rather quickly.

Illegal employees would not save money even if they did get paid less. $1 per hour less would save the company only $2080 per year tops in wages. It cost more than that in training, not to mention lost days or quantity and quality of production. Illegals cannot be depended on for the long term, or even on a daily basis. The costs would be far greater than the benefits.

How much would a company lose if they had to slow or stop production for a day or so for ICE raids? Tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars? When I was with Future Beef, the estimate at that time was measured in the thousands of dollars per minute.

I do understand the sarcasm, but I don't think there is anyway to show that hiring illegals is economically productive. I can't see why anyone would want to take the chance unless the company is under severe economic pressure, and not having to be audited for taxes or investors. In that case they were probably crooks to start with.

Just my opinion.

Patrick

Elee · Veteran Member

Patrick wrote:
I understand it is sarcasm, but I see several flaws in the thoughts.

In your opinion these are flaws in his thoughts, but it that the majority?

Illegal aliens wouldn't get lower wages. They would get the same as the other employees. Auditors for taxes and investors would catch that kind of problem rather quickly.

Of course, that is why processing plants all over the United States have illegals working for them. And that is why illegals are fogging accross the boarders to work at jobs and for companies that won't hire them. Not a pessimist but a realist.

Illegal employees would not save money even if they did get paid less. $1 per hour less would save the company only $2080 per year tops in wages. It cost more than that in training, not to mention lost days or quantity and quality of production. Illegals cannot be depended on for the long term, or even on a daily basis. The costs would be far greater than the benefits.

Is that calculation per illegal? If so, then multiply that by however many you have hired with stolen identities and they will make alot of money for the company. A blind man with a cane could see that.

How much would a company lose if they had to slow or stop production for a day or so for ICE raids? Tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars? When I was with Future Beef, the estimate at that time was measured in the thousands of dollars per minute.

Your right here, they would lose a large amount of money to have to shut down for a raid. But for so long, raids weren't happening, they made lots of money hiring those who they can pay less too, and not provide benifits. But that's ok because the state will pay for what medical bills that needs to be paid. So much for economic growth huh?

I do understand the sarcasm, but I don't think there is anyway to show that hiring illegals is economically productive. I can't see why anyone would want to take the chance unless the company is under severe economic pressure, and not having to be audited for taxes or investors. In that case they were probably crooks to start with.

Your right hiring illegals isn't economically productive, for the community that is. For the company I will have to beg to differ with your opinion. They can offer cheap wages to the legal and illegals and they will thrive in the community, and with both legals and illegals it would be hard to see the illegals in the mix. A perfect camafloge. With the government turning a blind eye to the illegal situation it makes it very easy for companies and packing plants to hire those illegals you are talking about with no recourse. It is happening here and everywhere. To put on rose colored glasses and pretend it isn't happening is just what the Federal government is doing and we all know how healthy that has been for our country! Just my opinion.

Just my opinion.

Patrick