Here is the article in question.


Penalty pondered for illegal beer sales

By JAMES JORDAN
Traveler Editor

Several businesses were caught selling beer to minors in a sting operation last April. As a result, they are to lose their license for three days. City commissioners discussed which three days that should be at their work session last night.

They are likely to decide at their regular meeting tonight, and they may hear from some of the business owners.

Some commissioners wanted to send a message by taking their license away during the Labor Day weekend. Others thought that was too harsh. Commissioners said they would like to know what the public thinks on the issue.

Commissioner Patrick McDonald felt that since selling alcohol to minors is a serious issue, the city should take a serious approach and "get their attention."

Commissioner Mel Kuhn thought that was too harsh, preferring to set the dates on a different weekend.

Commissioners may set the punishment for the weekend after Labor Day.

One business appealed, which is why it has taken so long for the matter to come before commission. Chinese Chef argued that the problem was a mixup between the order taker and the server. They lost the appeal.

City Attorney Tamara Niles said she wanted to address all the sanctions at the same time, so she waited until that issue was resolved.

The businesses that sold beer to minors did so through negligence, or just not checking IDs well enough, officials said.

Niles pointed out that Kansas drivers' licenses for people under 21 are vertical, while all others are in a horizontal format, so checking them should be very easy.

There could be some people who have turned 21 since they got their licenses, and could still have a vertical one.

Police sent people into various stores to try to buy beer. They were all under 21, and about 18 years of age.

Niles said the people were honest, saying they were under 21 if asked, and presented their IDs when asked.

According to the reports, some were allowed by buy beer even after saying they were not 21.

Liquor stores are under state supervision so their cases would not come before the commission.

Businesses involved are: Spring Hill Golf Course, Chinese Chef, Hillcrest Bowling Alley, Phil Stop II, North End, Apco East, and Jack's General Store.


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I say Absolutely YES to having them lose their license for the Labor Day weekend.  Selling to minors is a serious offense, and they need to know that the city will not bend to their wishes.  Hit them where it hurts... in their bottom line... and they will do their best to see that it doesn't happen again.  Slap them on the wrist, and you can bet nothing will change.

nope, they wussed out. SHOCKER!

maybe if the article asking for input hadn't appeared 2 day s before making a decision, you would have been able to read our opinions on this board. That, and if these boards weren't so darn slow. I haven't seen a post yet that was in favor of the light slap on the wrist that was handed out.

Why don't you put your name and number in your post, and next time you want feedback, we'll give you a call.

This is in regard to the post AC1st made to Bruce on his opinion.

AC1st wrote:Bruce, I think you are wrong to argue that three consecutive days including a weekend isn't a stiff penalty or that it won't have a significant impact for those establishments.  It just isn't the harshest penalty available which is what you wanted.  Of all of the people I talked to, only 2 agreed with you.

RR:  No negativity intended but, were the 2 people you spoke with on this subject that agreed with Bruce business people in town? or parents of teen age children? Or both? Or police officers? We have no idea why Bruce may have this strong opinion on this subject. I would suspect he has his reasons.
AC1st:  Both that I spoke to have children.  One has one that is 13, and I will admit that is a lot different than having a 17 year old.  I have spoken with one more person since that time who has children who also does not see it as an issue.  I have only spoken with one person since who agrees with Bruce (and others on this forum).  I am certainly open to discussing this and any other issue, but my main point is I just did not hear from many people before or after.  NONE of the people I talked to were business owners who sell alcohol.
 AC1st wrote:If you knew me at all, you'd know I care deeply about making careful decisions and not just knee-jerk reactions.  In fact, that is part of how a lot of bad laws and unnecessary ordinances get passed and bad decisions get made is because people depend too much on their emotions.

RR:  A question I might have on this knee jerk reation comment is "If you have a child or a family member that has been injured or even killed by a drunk driver no matter how old the driver is, Can you honestly say that you can not be emotional about this?" Is it a knee jerk reation to want the harshest penalty?  AC1st:  Very clearly, this is a very emotional issue.  And, I can understand the trajedy experienced by those who have had loved ones killed by drunk drivers as well as those who have had their lives ruined by alcohol and other drugs.  RR:  Very had to omit emotions on a situation like that. The reference to scruffys law is a good example but the law is only as good as the judicial system that enforces it. If the penalties are made, and they are not enforced by means of plea deals, or giving the least possible penalty, in my opinion, most first time offenders will most likely do it again. If it is stiffer, they will think twice about it. AC1st:  The hope is that the training will be better as all of these instances did not involve owners but employees so even the best training is only but as effective as the quality of employees hired.  Especially if it takes a bite out of their pocket book. AC1st:  Which it did and will even without the added holiday penalty.  due respect sir, this is just my arm chair opinion. Sorry I was not availible when this hot issue was being decided. I will try to be availible next time you have a tough decision to make, I will surely give you my opinion. AC1st:  You can give your opinions or ideas at any time.  It does not have to be during the consideration of a specific topic requiring a vote.  Hard to know which way to lean when you don't know what the public really wants.

AC1st wrote:In the end, it is not the way we voted or didn't that is the real shame.  The real shame is that you and others felt so strongly about this but didn't bother to let your concerns be known BEFORE the vote.  You might have thought the right answer was plainly obvious.  What is plain to me is that if you would get involved and contribute rather than criticize after the fact, this city would be in better shape. 

RR:  I do believe you are right on your opinion of this, we all do need to become more involved. The problem is solving the issues of time and lifestyles due to work schedules and personal responsiblities. AC1st:  I agree.  Being involved is not easy for anyone.  Even with our change to evenings for the worksessions, it is still difficult to make even if you are not at work.   RR:  I wonder if it would be possible to have a hot line for the citizens of AC to be able to access, or even an email address for them to access to give their opinions.  AC1st:  We DO now have the citizen's comment box at City Hall. The comments placed in there go straight to the Mayor.  Of course, there is also always email and phone for all of us.  RR:  And of course they would have to give their names and a way to be reached to be valid. Could this work so that maybe you and other city council memebers would have a direct hot line to the citizens on the issues? I know in one of the posts I found recently I saw the email addresses of the council memebers.  AC1st:  This is the best way in my opinion, or at least the best way to get the ball rolling.  Even though email is not foolproof in that it sometimes bounces or does not get delivered, it is every bit as accessible as posting in a blog.  RR:  Maybe this is one way to be able to have contact with the citizens other than attending the council meetings.  AC1st:  I think you will find that to be the case.  RR:  Attending I would say would be the best way to make your opinions known, but not always the only way. AC1st: Whether you show up in person or whether you contact us individually, your voices will be heard and considered.  At his request, I stopped by the house of one citizen at 11pm because he wanted me to hear how loud the music can be over at the Ag building during events.  He can hear it in his home with the doors and windows closed and the tv on.  I had a bit of doubt in my mind before I went over and heard it for myself.  I did not agree completely with his point of view on what should be done, but I invited him to come to a worksession and he did.  I would have presented his concerns either way, but as a result of his presence, I think he obtained greater satisfaction than he would have by just talking to others or typing about it.

AC1st wrote:In many cases, anonymous posters are specifically responsible for perpetuating negativity.  It makes far more sense to dialogue about issues and have meaningful conversations so we can find the best solutions for this town, but you've got to be willing to engage even if it isn't as easy or fun for you as just blogging.

RR:  I will have to agree with you on part of this statement. A dialogue on the issues is much better than name calling and juvenile antics. But in my opinion, any one with an opinion should be able to state it. Any one with any common sense will know the mud slingers from the posters with an honest opinion. Right? I see every day mudslinging going on, but it doesn't sway me to their way of thinking. I believe you need to give some of the posters here on this forum some credit. Yes, we see negativity, but we also see positive comments. I don't however believe that this forum is responsible for alot of the negativity in this city. As I have said before, the negativity exists already, we are just seeing the results of it on the forum. Dealing with the issues is the only way that we can squelch the negativity. One issue at a time. Of course that is just my opinion.  AC1st:  I do not think you are wrong on this and I am not attempting to censure anyone.  I am just making a case for personal contact and communication rather than slinging it out anonymously.  Although you are right that people can make their own best decisions, this forum often serves to perpetuate negativity as well as inaccuracies.  There are not many posters here, but that does not mean there are not a lot of observers.  Those observing know to take what they read with a grain of salt, but would it not make more sense instead for there to be as much accurate information and good ideas here as possible?

AC1st wrote:This commission isnt here out of self-interest.  We all had plenty to do before taking this on.  Every one of us takes pride in this community.  If you want to see what you might consider to be better decisions on certain issues, please show up or call or email us. 

RR:  Of course you are all doing this for the good of the community, why else would you take the time away from you family and jobs to do this. I personally commend you for that. And I am glad that you are pushing the community to be more active, not just in attending commission meetings, but in emailing and calling. But please, when you get a call from a citizen on an issue this citizen may have on a subject. Please don't tell the citizen to call the department and take the issue up with the department. AC1st:  It really depends on the situation.  Sometimes, I have found the caller just wants information on who to call.  Sometimes, they want someone else to follow up because they are not comfortable with doing it.  Whatever is the best format for them is how we will respond.  I had one fellow call about a concern over Johnson grass in his backyard.  I have made three calls on that, but it is not because nothing is being done.  I just do not know every step along the way, so I call to see what the status is because when I drive by and look, I do not see any change.  It has been turned over to code enforcement and I am waiting on an update but think the order is about to go out for the city to mow it and charge it back to the owner.  That is a long process, but it is still a better result than the 'no result' of before.  Obviously, the best scenario would be if the owner would just take care of it so that the city never has to get involved.  As I understand this situation in particular, it had been an issue for years and nothing had come of it.  So, in this instance, it made more sense for me to call.  RR:  Sometimes it is easy for Joe P Citizen to be lost in the shuffle when it comes to calls like we have been told to do  in the past. To be put on the back burner. Hence, you get negativity. It will probably be more work for you as commissioners to deal with each issue  given, but between you all, maybe you can share the burden. AC1st:  That is very reasonable.  However, it is not a burden either.  We have the goal and privilege (when we succeed) of bettering the community for everyone as well as helping people with their individual concerns.  Not once have I heard one of our current commissioners complain that they have heard from too many people or even too much from any one individual.  The opposite is more often something I hearthat we do not hear from enough people.  I cannot speak for them as much though because it is entirely possible that I do not hear from as many as they do.   RR:  I am sure you knew when you campaigned for the commission you knew this would be time consuming. I am sure that is why more people don't run for office. And we thank you for your efforts.

AC1st wrote:One thing you most definitely got with this commission is a group that serves not out of self-interest, but one that is accessible, willing to listen, and ready to make things happen for you.  I wish there was some way to encourage you to take advantage of our commitment to listen to you by approaching us either as individuals or at the work sessions

RR:  I would like for you to know that in my opinion it shows courage and commitment for you and Mr MC to be posting on this forum. It would be so easy for you all to just look down on this forum and discredit it to "just a bunch of cyber nuts". But we are the people. We are the community.  We are Joe P Citizen that would like to be heard. Some of us are just folks doing shift work, or have other personal responsibilites that keep us from the main stream of the daily activities down town. But none the less we still have our opinions. And would like to be heard. I will have to admit that some of us have a harder time relaying this on the forum than others. And it is too bad that at least one of those posters that I know of anyway has been banned. He may have not been as sensitive as he could have been in posting his opinion, but we all know that every one has their own way of communitcation. For that I am sorry. Every one has a right to have an opinion. His was just a bit stronger than the mainstream poster possibly. I am certain that be cause of this he will have even more negativity than he started with.That is too bad, just my opinion.  AC1st:  I agree.  I wish Saveacity would have left an email address because I wanted to be able to reach them to discuss some of their ideas.  I did not agree with all of them, but I appreciated their candor and felt like they had a fresh perspective on some things and that is needed.
 Scott.m@myfuss.com

 

I noticed this while out and about. This is the ballpark in sleeth.  The grass is over a foot high, possibly two (i didn't get my yardstick out).  I can think of many other places where the city should clean up it's own backyard before worrying about others.  The canal behind Jefferson School, which Redd Rover mentioned, is of particular concern, as I have a child in school there.  If he were ever bitten by a snake while playing in the school playground, I would certainly raise a stink.

SG, I don't make it down to the ball park to much but I do make it to many other places that are problem areas. I was harrassed so much about the yard I had in town that I sold the property. It wasn't because I didn't want to keep it up. I was having a hard time with the mower I had and keeping it running. I chose to sell the property rather than to suffer the constant notices from the city. When I bought the houses there in town there were two of them. They had sat empty for a few years. After I bought them I fixed them up and made them alot nicer than they were originally. And even though I worked so hard on the property to improve it. I still had to suffer the harassment from the city. Letters from the city on the grass and on items I stored on the back side of my storage building. All the while I could see grass all over town that looked worse than my yard but it was city property. It was very disturbing to me. And of course still is when I hear them doing it to someone else. I am hoping by bringing this out into the open this will yet be one more thing the city can address to stop so much of the negativity going on in regard to the city. It is something that should be addressed by the commission. We just need the same rules for all involved in the city and no double standards. By ignoring this, it won't go away. By addressing this and seeing some change, the negativity will go away eventually.

I can't believe the City Commission is trying to see what the least penalty available for those businesses that broke the law.  The Labor Day weekend is a way to show those that the law is the law.  Please Commisioners don't show your backsides on this issue.  Gee, will the killer of Jodi Sanderholm get a reduced penalty because someone thinks that a life for a life is too harsh.