I too am a member for the fire district #5. I was very happy when the county commission stepped in to stop the district from signing an agreement with a new fire dept. No one I spoke with felt the new fire dept was a great idea, however we did appreciate the district looking out for the increased cost. However, I don't believe the fire district was thinking clearly about all the other issues involved with a new dept such as ambulance svc, etc. Too me those type of add'l svcs are worth the extra money, chances are we would have been paying for ambulance svc and a new fire department....probably at a higher rate. I read where one person said his insurance would only go up by $100 a year if the new fire dept. became a reality. However small that may sound I'm sure our taxes would have gone up by less. It's sad the fire district felt they had to resign but honestly I'm happy about it because I did not feel they were looking at this thing from a TOTAL business perspective only "you're gonna raise our rates so we'll show you" type of deal hurting only the people in the rural area. I do hope the county commissioners and the new city commission will work together to find a rate that is best for all parties involved.
While I don't live in District 5 - I have been following the controversy for the past couple of months. I am a volunteer firefighter with a another department in the county and have seen the exact same thing happen in the past when I lived in Manhattan.
Back in the early 1980's - all areas outside of the city limits of Manhattan and Manhattan Township (rural area surrounding Manhattan) was served by a Riley County Fire District I, a county wide fire district which was totally volunteer. My parents lived in an Manhattan Township and our fire protection was provided by the city. The city of Manhattan decided they didn't really have the proper equipment for rural structure fires (no tankers) and asked the township board to pay more $$$ for fire protection so the city could buy a tanker. The township board balked at paying more $$$ for fire protection and petitioned the county to add our township to the county fire district. The county aggreed to add our township to fire district and build fire stations to serve the township.
Guess what - the county ended up spending more $$$ to build the fire stations needed than what the city was asking for. We had decicated volunteers and we survived, but I can honestly tell you that houses burned down because we didn't have the proper equipment and training. After 10 years of hard work, the new department was well trained, experienced and fairly well equipped, we were just lucky that no civilian lives were lost in the time it took to get things up to speed. We did loose on firefighter to a heart attack while driving our tanker (a Korean War surplus converted military 6x6) to a structure fire.
In my opinion, it would have been cheaper (taxes) over the first 10 years to have stayed with city fire protection. Also, because of the new department, our ISO raiting went up to a 10 and everyone's home insurance went up.
Looking at what's happening in Ark City:
Not sure if the city's price is fair, but going with a new department will not be much cheaper than paying what the city first asked.
Biggest Problem - no way they can build a fire station for $60,000. It would be 3 to 4 times that price.
Another problem - volunteer departments in small towns work because most of the firefighters live within a minute or two of the station and traffic's not an issue. One of the issues we ran into at Manhattan was that during the daytime, most of our firefighters worked 10~20 minutes from the fire station depending on traffic. A rule of thumb a house fire doubles in size each minute, so 20 minutes means we saved the foundation. I think you would have a similar issue in Ark City.
Also - since they were going to contract with a private company for fire protection - the firefighters would be considered "private" firefighters, not public firefighters and would not be elgible for the federal and state death and disability benefits. The fire department would also be considered a private department and wouldn't be elgible for federal and state grants.
Honestly - as a firefighter in the county - we are in an era of the greatest cooperation between fire departments that we have ever experienced in Cowley County. All of the departments in the county are involved in automatic aid agreements that automatically dispatch at a minimum 2 departments on every structure fire in the county. Its comforting to know as a firefighter and as a tax payer that their is plenty of help on its way. It hasn't always been that way - a lot of progress have been made over the past 3~5 years. The Ark City-Winfield rivalry (at least with the fire depts) is over and they work together very well.
I have a solution or perhaps another option to consider. Some seem to think costs are not aligned and Arkansas City is gouging. Maybe the ACFD should be subcontracted out to Sedwick County and WFD (Wichita City) resources. Think of the money we could save on top heavy and ineffecient management. Why do we need to pay our high rates when we could gain economy in experience. Don't ask me to patronize either the RFD of AcFD.
__________________
"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." == Winston Churchill
While I feel if we can stay with the ACFD on fire protection would be the best for all involved, I have to wonder why they have to be so dead set on the amount they are asking. (raises for the firefighters?) (or maybe more equipment?)
I do hope that you don't believe the Firefighters are over paid. I do not believe that any Firefighter or Paramedic anywhere in the world could ever be paid enough for what they do. Their lives are endangered every time they are called upon to respond. Each and every one of them would gladly go into an inferno to save us. Every one of them would work unceasing to cut us out of a crumpled automobile. Every one of them would gladly donate their personal time to tirelessly search for someone missing. Each one would gladly enter horrible flood conditions to search for someone that intentionally threw themselves into those flood waters. They gladly give of themselves to us, the public. And we never say thank you, we complain, we moan, we are rude to them. And still they would do anything for us.
Some Guy, I don't think that in my statement I made the comment anywhere that Firefighters were over paid. I know from personal experience, they are not. My spouse was one for almost twenty years. My statement was concerning the fact that WHY all the sudden after all this time, we have to raise the cost on rural fire protection so high, so fast? Why all the sudden we need to not negotiate a cost with the county instead of just billing them what they expect? That is what my thoughts were.
Some guy says>>>Each and every one of them would gladly go into an inferno to save us. Every one of them would work unceasing to cut us out of a crumpled automobile. Every one of them would gladly donate their personal time to tirelessly search for someone missing. Each one would gladly enter horrible flood conditions to search for someone that intentionally threw themselves into those flood waters.
Career is a life choice, you are either made for that career or your not. I have seen from the other side, just what kind of effects that this career choice can do to a human being with the day to day experiences they go through.With that life choice comes a decision, Do I want to subject myself to this kind of danger/environment on a daily basis? If the decision is yes, than you are the kind of person that can make a career choice in being a firefighter. Just as police officers do every day. What I do know is, I don't know of one firefighter/police officer that is living in substandard housing, or on food stamps. Most I know make a decent living. What I do know is life and economy is getting worse for everyone in the community, with gas prices going up, and food prices going up, and big bother pulling more and more money from our paychecks in the way of taxes, that makes it almost impossible to make ends meet. WE ARE ALL suffering from this economy, not just one department, not just one county, not just one state. Cowley county is known for it's high taxes. I have family memebers that live in other counties that are amazed at the tax we pay. And I am concerned this issue will raise the taxes yet again. I mean no disrespect to any of the firefighters as I KNOW and am well aware of the daily sevices they provide. And yes, I am greatful to them for doing what they do. Just as I am for the police officers and the soldiers that die every day in the line of duty. They too have to see and do every day, things that we the citizens take for granted. But times are hard right now for every one. And in my opinion, times are going to get harder before they get better, the way the economy is going. Soldiers can't negotiate what their pay is going to be, they made a career choice thank God for it. They are dying every day as a direct result of the decision they made to serve. I suppose all I am saying is, it would be wonderful if the city would negotiate and be stong enough to bend....even if just a little.
Yes, I do agree with you that we are badly over taxed. I look forward to one day moving south, to get away from the taxes, although I do love this area and the people. I think that what the City had in mind was to slowly bring the price up (over 5 years) to bring it more in line with actual cost. There had been no increase in many years. It is unfortunate, and terribly painful, I know. I live in the City limits, having moved in from the country, around Parkerfield. I was very stunned at the increased cost, and the yearly inreases as well. Now there is no safe place to live in the area without the City reaching out and grabbing you. I am very sorry.
don't generalize that the acfd is composed of sefless individuals until you have met and know the people active, retired, incarcirated and paroled.
abc123,
I can generalize, as I know each and every one of them. AND I love them, I don't see you there making firends. Do not let one insane with rage who shot his wife in the butt, stereotype the rest of them. If I were to do that to you, I would think everyone that uses abc or 123 in their screen name a moron. But I do not.
The individuals that serve at the ACFD are well paid, they are people that chose to train and enter that field, it's time to stop letting the fire trade ride the 911 legacy. The guys bunking up together in our town did nothing on 911 that everyone else did on that day, they saw more TV than anyone. Don't try to tell me about underpaid neglected firemen, most of them own more real estate than you can imagine.
__________________
"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." == Winston Churchill
The most concern I have is for the raising of the taxes. As you know, and have stated you agree, that we are over taxed in this county. For those on a fixed income this makes it so difficult to survive. I can only wish wages would go up in the same fashion that taxes are raised. Or can wish there were jobs in this county that paid as well as some of the ones we have to travel out of town to have, to make a good wage. With gas going up, that almost eats up the profits of working out of town. Times are getting harder. For everyone. We need to try to understand the plight of the common citizen and make some kind of alowances. Even though the president of our country cannot, or will not, take a stand to aid the common citizen, (in stablizing gas prices) I would like to think we could do something on a local level. Even if they raised the price of fire service a little each year, that will eat up the common citizens income eventually. I know they cannot offer fire service for free, but I do believe that most of the runs that ACFD makes in the county are grass fires. Penalize the ones that start these grass fires when they start them. Charge them. Don't make the whole district pay for the carlessness of a few. I know that if that were to happen some fire starters would be a bit more careful when, and where, they start them in the future. I know that in order to maintain grasslands, a certain amount of burning is necessary. But I have seen controlled burns started on windy dry days. Sometimes resulting in the fire getting away and burning acres and acres of grasslands. And resulting in time and wages being spent on firefighters called in to assist. I believe we could try to make a plan to manage this districts calls. It would be interesting to know what the records would show if we went back to look at fire runs, locations, and where the majority of the calls were made. I am certian you will find they will be grass fires. I don't profess to know all the answers but I would like to see all involved work together on some kind of negotiations. It is not about one side or the other, it is about all of us living together and enduring these times the best we can and trying not to force hardships on either side.
The individuals that serve at the ACFD are well paid, they are people that chose to train and enter that field, it's time to stop letting the fire trade ride the 911 legacy. The guys bunking up together in our town did nothing on 911 that everyone else did on that day, they saw more TV than anyone. Don't try to tell me about underpaid neglected firemen, most of them own more real estate than you can imagine.
ABC123,
You seem very ignorant about what these people do. A Firefighter here will work as hard in 30 minutes during a house fire as other men do in eight hours. That is a proven fact. Thus, Firefighters have the highest risk of heart attack. It is also a well known fact that Firefighters are exposed to a plethora of toxic and deadly conditions. To think that is does not happen here is a very deadly mistake. It does. A single house fire can and does produce well over 20 deadly chemicals. Even a simple pile of grass clippings may be deadly, not knowing if someone poured a substance over it to accelerate the decomposing process, such as a tree stump remover. A car fire produces some of the deadliest smoke and fumes around. Yes, they have protective clothing and breathing protection and this does help them in most conditions. But there is so many times where you cannot foresee the unknown. And because of all these hazards, national Firefighter cancer rates are HIGH!
To say that they are not the same caliber as those that died on 9-11 proves that you know nothing of them or the Fire Service. Yes, they sat and watched what was happening on T.V. during 9-11. Who did not? Except they had a closer bond to what they were seeing on T.V. . In the Fire Service, everybody is Brother and Sister. And I know for a fact that many cried for their Brother and Sisters, and all the others that died that day. All would gladly have traded places, if a difference could have been made. And all would have gladly gone to NYC to help with the search afterwards. In fact, one of the City Firefighters was nearly on one of the planes that crashed that fateful day. He missed it by 30 minutes or so, I am told. Would that have made a difference in your mind, if one would actually have given his life on that fateful day?
Yes, I think they are way under paid. But if you were to ask one of them, they would deny it. Do you think you make enough money?? If you say yes, you are a liar. They are honest, sincere, caring and humble people that would do anything for each other, and they actually do anything for us. If you have a problem that you can not get resolved any place else, call them. If they do not come right over, they at least will have a very good answer to resolve the situation. The Fire Service has evolved from the days when all they did was fight fire. They are asked to do virtually innumerable tasks with respect to public safety.And to stay current on ALL those tasks. They are expected to perform flawlessly, even if it is a once in a lifetime type of situation. One they may have only read about, years ago. A Firefighter could read 5 books a year on Emergency Services and never get back to the first book that they read on the subject. There is just too many.
Also, each one of them is a Paramedic. With the exception of a few EMTs that grand fathered in. Being a Paramedic means that they have attended college, and more than likely have an Associates Degree, or higher. That is right, they are EDUCATED. They are NOT a bunch of do nothing high school drop out individuals sitting around playing Dominoes. They are educated and they approached each situation intelligently, not blindly rushing in as you would have them do. They chose to spend their OWN money to go to college, and learn a profession that deals in care of the sick and injured. Many did so at extreme pain and sacrifice to themselves and their family. That is NOBLE. Many other people fail the Paramedic course than those that pass. It is very hard. And they probably earn the same as the men that haul the garbage in the city.
Isnt it great that they can buy property just as everyone else? Do you fault them for that? Everybody else in the United States can buy property, yet you do not fault them.
Yes, they did choose the lifestyle they work in. They knew they would not get rich when they went in to it. But they also did not choose a life of poverty. And I know for a fact that many work a second job, and their spouses work as well. Just as so many other Americans do. Therefore, any property they may own did not necessarily come solely from the pay they earn protecting life and property. But if the money did come solely from public service, then it was from them being very smart about how they spent their money, and saving, or investing.
Besides all this, this whole Fire District 5 thing is not about them, the Firefighters. They are not the problem. The money the City is requesting from RFD 5 will not go to the Firefighters, I know for a fact. I wish for all of you in the County that the Firefighter could continue to serve you without the need for all this B.S. going on. Many grew up here in this area, and I know that all this must be eating at them terrible. But they are forbidden by policy to speak out about this. But some have chosen to speak anyway. But please do not interpret the others silence as a lack of desire to serve you, RFD 5.
I can count at least two "responders" here that sound like firemen. I struck some nerves either because I am close to the truth, or something is being hid from public view. The "insane" fireman is no more 911 probable than the balance of the department, I choose to think that since his life situation was "different" he was singled out by "mainstream" employees. The fact that Newguy seems to think it funny here the spouse was shot only resounds that firemen and firearms don't mix.
__________________
"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." == Winston Churchill
I can count at least two "responders" here that sound like firemen. I struck some nerves either because I am close to the truth, or something is being hid from public view. The "insane" fireman is no more 911 probable than the balance of the department, I choose to think that since his life situation was "different" he was singled out by "mainstream" employees. The fact that Newguy seems to think it funny here the spouse was shot only resounds that firemen and firearms don't mix.
good lord - I guess ignorance is a bless! There are some people who help serve their fellow man, and people like abc123 who jsut criticize everyone. Thank good your in the minority or our country would be in worse shape than it already is.
This is a letter to the editor I read in tonights paper. It was interesting to read. I too have wondered about what Winfield charges their county residents for fire service. If what this guy is saying is true, Did we take a hit on taxes and insurance from this decision? I hope not. With the price of gasoline and food going up, I hope this too, won't be another way for big bother to get into our pockets. Does anyone else know anything on this subject to add to the discussion?
Fire protection still hot topic
The county commissioners caved in faster than France did for Hitler.
The last deal offered to the RFD #5 board was $229,000 and that was obscene!
Now the commissioners step in and we have a deal for $199,000 plus $46,000 and we lose the fire trucks. What happened? That's the wrong direction!
The way I add, that's $245,000 and without local grass fire protection. Most of the district just went from level 9 to a 10. That means higher insurance premiums.
So now we go from $160,000 to $245,000 with decreased protection and potentially higher insurance rates, all thanks to our commissioners.
The AC Fire Department is also subsidized with part of the Arkansas City sales tax.
Why do they need so much more than Winfield? Winfield makes more runs (348 vs. 241 in RFD #7 through 11/30/06) over a larger area with the same valuation ($25,034,469 vs. $25,179,796) and they don't need anything like Ark City (5 mill levy vs. AC 7.5).
Are they better managed?
Also, isn't it in violation of State Statute 19-1310 to tax that heavily?
I feel we are being held ransom with the insinuation that we must accept whatever the city offers without negotiation or we do without. That sounds like extortion to me.
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
We depended on our county commissioners to look out for the county residents. That didn't seem to work.
So, the only way I can show my displeasure with this "sweetheart" deal is to make all future purchases (cars, trucks, appliances, groceries, etc.) outside Arkansas City and to be sure not to vote for any sitting county commissioner in the next election.
It seems that Ark City has no appreciation for their rural neighbors and the revenue we bring to the city. In their haste to get back at Parkerfield, they have punished everyone who lives in the district!
Thought I would help correct some of the constant misinformation. The insurance rating will not go to a 9 or a 10 because of the new contract. The ISO rating for the property located in district 5 are based upon the Ark City Fire Departments capabilities. The forestry services trucks used by the ranchers to burn their pastures have NO bearing upon the current ISO ratings. Nobody lost local grass fire protection. Arkansas City has always provide all the fire protection needs to district 5. I have seen the trucks, we did not lose anything! One of the trucks does not have a pump,water tank or any equipment on it. Glad I don't have to depend on it during an emergency. The statements that our insurance ratings will go up are wrong. The statements that we lost local fire protection are wrong. Please check your facts! I also find it interesting that the cost of fire and ems protection in Winfield is around 2.5 million dollars per year and the cost for fire and ems in Ark City is around 1.7 million per year.
MC, And you know all this because???? If you have all this rock solid information why isn't this being told to the public via comission meetings,new papers ect.... I would suspect you are either with the city or the fire department. If so, with all the "mis-information" floating around I would try to show the citizens of District #5 just where the money is going, and what their "ISO" rating will be. All I know is that when your daily life is disrupted and your future is in someone elses hands, it would be nice to know all this. Every one is not on a day shift schedule which makes it impossible to attend all the meetings to be "in the know". IF in fact your information is correct, THANK YOU for your input. Because you didn't sign your name to your post, I have no idea if your information is credible. As it stands with me now I will file this all under the "constant" maybe this information is correct file. Again thank you for your input.
I do not expect you or anyone to belive me just as I don't belive most of the things I read on the posts. :) I do however expect for people to seek facts before they feed the fire so to speak. My info was very easy to obtain. ISO ratings are located on the fire departments FAQ web page. Budget info is also available on Ark City and Winfield web page and I have a telephone. I don't mean to be sarcastic but I am also not afraid to call and ask questions. You will be surprized that you can get the correct information by simply calling and asking. If you have a question about the fire department I would suggest you call the fire chief and ask. When all this began I too was concerned about my family in the fire district but I sure did not rely upon internet blogs to relieve my concerns or to obtain the information I needed. As for the Traveler, I totaly agree withyou, I wish they would do a story about the fire department so the facts would get out to the public. Maybe they would post some pictures of the forestry trucks in the paper, it would be an eye opener to the people in the district if they thought they were being protected by these trucks.
As a memeber of the rural fire district #5, I have been following this fairly close. In the Traveler tonight was an article on this subject. While I feel if we can stay with the ACFD on fire protection would be the best for all involved, I have to wonder why they have to be so dead set on the amount they are asking. (raises for the firefighters?) (or maybe more equipment?) Below is the article found in the Traveler. While it is sad to see the board members resign this post, it is too bad it had to come to this.
Fire board members resign District officials feel county took their authority By JAMES JORDAN Traveler Editor Rural Fire District 5 board members resigned Tuesday morning at the Cowley County Commission meeting after saying they did not feel supported by the county.It was unclear this morning what this will mean for the ongoing debate over what Arkansas City charges for rural fire protection. The county may negotiate with the city itself, or appoint a new board.Fire board members were upset because the commission told them last week they could not sign a contract for fire protection without getting the county's approval. The board has been negotiating a fee for fire protection with Arkansas City for a couple of months. At a fire district board meeting Monday night, board member Albert Bacastow said he has been a board member for 30 years and they had never had to have approval from the county before."They may be right as far as the law, but they have set a precedent over the last 30 years," he said.At the county meeting Tuesday Bacastow read a letter of resignation before he and other board members walked out of the building."We thought you would be in our corner," he read from the letter, and said the board no longer feels that way and they resign, effective immediately."We feel you undermined the mutual confidence we had," board president Gilbert Rahn said.At the meeting Monday, Rahn said he felt that the county has taken the district's authority away.The district has been negotiating with Arkansas City over the price of fire protection.The city had asked for $229,000 originally, and commission member Scott Margolius presented a new offer Monday, for $222,500. The fire district took no action, but board members did not seem enthused with the offer, and said later it was not different enough.The fire protection rates have risen dramatically over the last two of years. Board members feel they are being gouged, but city officials say the rates were not raised for several years, and they are just trying to get the rates to reflect what it costs them to provide service.County officials said they wanted to encourage negotiations, and that was why they told the fire district that they would have to get approval from the county before signing a contract.Board members had been set to sign a contract with a private company for fire protection. The fire district board agreed to the contract over a month ago, but it was not signed because they still were interested in trying to work out something with the city.Bacastow and Rahn remember going through the same thing 25 years ago, and they considered going with a private company at that time. The city lowered its offer then, and they stayed with the city.Rahn said he has been sitting on the contract for over a month because he wanted to see if something could be worked out with the city. The board agreed to accept a contract from a private provider at a meeting over a month ago. With the county not allowing the district to sign a contract, he felt he had no negotiating power left, and so turned in his resignation.Board members question how the city arrived at the offer. They still believe the city is overstating the costs involved.Margolius said there are different ways of looking at numbers."It comes down to how you look at it and your opinion about the numbers. There are people at city hall that are sincere about these numbers and they can defend them," he said. He said he was willing to look at the numbers in different ways, but said he did not know if that meant they would come out differently.Bob Mathews, a former city commissioner, said he thought the city was not acting in a fair manner because it gives tax breaks to businesses but is not giving a break to the rural fire district.
This is an interesting concept Bob has suggested. I too wonder sometimes about all the tax breaks the city gives these businesses who want to build or come to our city. Is it not revenue to the city for us as rural district #5 to give them money for services rendered? Are we as residents around AC not giving to the community as much or more then some of the businesses they have brought in? Why is it all the sudden a huge problem with the amount we are paying them? Could it be that AC got a new City Manager? Or ACFD got a new Chief? Or maybe a mixture of both.
"The people in the fire district bring more money into the city than a strip mall will," he said.After board members resigned and left this morning, Parkerfield Mayor Mike Berganini and other commission members remained behind and talked briefly with county commission members.They agreed more discussion and negotiation is needed.Both sides have said they are willing to talk, and both sides say the other party has not come forward to talk about the issue."We had hoped for good faith from Arkansas City," Berganini said.Newly elected Arkansas City Commissioner Mell Kuhn, who was at the meeting Tuesday, said the fire board has not come to the city with a counter proposal.County Commissioner Dick Bonfy said "the county was just trying to buy time for both parties to get together and talk. From the county's standpoint, this thing needs to be worked out between Arkansas City and the board."Arkansas City Mayor Dotty Smith said this morning she had just heard that the board had resigned."Now it will be up to the county commission to review the proposal. There isn't anything for us to do until they review our proposal," she said.She said the matter would not likely be discussed at tonight's city commission meeting. It will be intersting on the out come of this subject. Either way we will have to pay more. If we went with the new fire department we will be paying more than likly more in insurance. If we stay with ACFD we still will be paying more in taxes. The common tax payer is going to get the wrong end of the stick one was or the other. How much more do they think we can take?
MC, I wish they would put a picture in the paper of the forrestry trucks as well. Up until hearing of them during this recent dispute, I didn't even know there were trucks available to the county like that. As for using the intenet blogs for the only source of informantion that is not true. I have asked questions but maybe didn't ask the right people. For that I may be guilty. Rather than to have every one of the District 5 people call the Fire department and talk to the fire chief, I would have believed, it would have been much better to let the public know via the home town news. Or even post something on the cowley county web site. I don't go the the Arkcity web site at all as I don't live in the city. But I do keep up with the county commission meeting via the web site. Thank you for your informative internet blog.
